77 replies to this topic

[buzzda]

stock turbo and FMIC.

Cool, in the interest of increasing the knowledge bank here could you tell us how/why you reached that conclusion (again, NOT having a dig, just curious). Maybe pro's/con's of each and myths.

[Soop]

The only real cons is having to run all the pipework. Some people reckon it increases lag, but I can't see where.

[buzzda]

From what I've read (yes read) the reason people state for the increase in lag is the xtra length in the piping from the turbo to the inlet man. and the extra bends required. One write up suggested that each 90deg bend was equiv to 3ft of straight pipe. Kinda does make sense that the longer the piping between the turbo and man the longer it takes the air to get there.

[Trent]

lol at the fmic fanbois. Heaksoak is only a problem for the first 5 seconds (if that!) after you take off from the lights. After that the air getting rammed in through the scoop cools the tmic and all is good. So unless you are planning on racing every excel and integra you line up next to at the traffic lights, front mounts are a waste of money imo.

That is until you get above a certain power level,(I think it's around 240 - 250kw) then you have that much airflow that a top mount just doesn't have the surface area to sufficiently cool the air before it enters the turbo. So then a front mount is the way to go. Both have their uses. So really it depends on what you want out of the car. Best thing to do is go speak to the bloke who is going to tune it for you. Tell him what you want and he'll tell you how to get it. Better than listening to all the 'experts'* on the internet.

But I reckon stuff the car and travel. Heaps better than wasting it on an already great car.

* I include myself in that list of so called 'experts'.

[Soop]

The difference in lag is fairly small.

Skywarp, the fact that you don't even know what an inter cooler does says to me you need to shush.
It cools the air after the turbo has compressed it, not cool it down prior to going through the turbo.

As for "Fanbois", the fact is FMIC works far more efficiently then a TMIC. The effects can be felt even after a brief punt through the hills.
Take what ever power figures you're current setup is making, then lower the intake temps with a FMIC, it'll allow you to wind up the timing advance and decrease the fuel consumption.

There is absolutely no reason why one WOULDN'T use a FMIC, other then they don't want to spend the money.

[skillionaire]

Hi,

I've never liked the look of a front mount intercooler, price really didn't effect my decision to upgrade the top mount.

Cheers,
Nik

[acres]

Soop/Alex/anyone, genuine question.

Which would provided the best bang for buck upgrade?

Upgrading the turbo and keeping the TMIC, or

Stock turbo with FMIC?

Depends on the original turbo. Upgrading to a much more efficient turbo with TMIC will drop charge temps significantly too.

[Soop]

Depends on the original turbo. Upgrading to a much more efficient turbo with TMIC will drop charge temps significantly too.

Damn straight it will.
20psi from a GT3271 will be a damn sight cooler then 20psi from a Vf11.

And a VF11 is double the size of a B4 secondary!

[Trent]

The difference in lag is fairly small.

Skywarp, the fact that you don't even know what an inter cooler does says to me you need to shush.
It cools the air after the turbo has compressed it, not cool it down prior to going through the turbo.

As for "Fanbois", the fact is FMIC works far more efficiently then a TMIC. The effects can be felt even after a brief punt through the hills.
Take what ever power figures you're current setup is making, then lower the intake temps with a FMIC, it'll allow you to wind up the timing advance and decrease the fuel consumption.

There is absolutely no reason why one WOULDN'T use a FMIC, other then they don't want to spend the money.

major LOL at myself. shows how much I think. My own stupidity amazes even me sometimes.

[acres]

Damn straight it will.
20psi from a GT3271 will be a damn sight cooler then 20psi from a Vf11.

And a VF11 is double the size of a B4 secondary!

Or just save your coin for a few more weeks and do new turbo + fmic. This is what I will be doing shortly

[aekOne]

lol how is this fmic v tmic discussion still going?

[buzzda]

Maybe cause of the hundreds of write ups like this:

To sum it all up, on Subarus:

■Front-Mount Intercooler is absolutely NOT necessary unless your rotated turbo setup requires it;
■FMICs for daily driven Subarus are a waste of money;
■FMICs add turbo lag;
■FMICs are not safe, the front bumper beam has to be removed or cut to install an FMIC;
■FMIC supports marketed by FMIC manufacturers are not a replacement for the stock bumper beam and are not safe;
■Large aftermarket TMIC with alcohol injection is more efficient at cooling than a large FMIC without alcohol injection;
■FMIC with alcohol injection is not more efficient than a TMIC with alcohol injection;
■Stay with a large aftermarket Top-Mount Intercooler and a stock location turbo – other than looks and turbo setup requirements, there is no sane reason to install a Front-Mount intercooler on your car.

From: Why You Don’t Need a Front-Mount Intercooler on a WRX/STI

We're told not to believe "internet garbage" but these articles give alot more information and technical, in depth reasons. Not just "I did it, so it be the best" or "suchandsuch did it and he's awesome so he must be right"

[Alex]

fork it then.

read what you like on the internet. take it all in as gospel.

don't take real world experience in at all. i mean, all those years and people on RSLC including myself who have yielded dramatic improvement and results on the dyno and on the quarter mile must be all wrong.

stick with the top mount then.

[ams]

Dudes,

Chillax some.

This is not ozliberty.

Non constructive comments in this thread will be deleted from now on.

- Alex.

[buzzda]

fork it then.

read what you like on the internet. take it all in as gospel.

don't take real world experience in at all. i mean, all those years and people on RSLC including myself who have yielded dramatic improvement and results on the dyno and on the quarter mile must be all wrong.

stick with the top mount then.

What with all the anger dude? Sorry for finding some research that contradicts what you beleive. I know it's hard for you to accept a different view but I didn't even say I beleived it.

Aek asked why the debate was still goin, and that was just an example.

All I asked for was some evidence other than "I did it" and "he did it"? and we say it better. 1/4mile times of before and after the FMIC only? or, 0-100 times? or intake temps before and after? or track times?


I (or anyone else) never said that we thought a TMIC was better at cooling, quite the opposite. I think you'll find that everyone agreed that a FMIC was better at cooling. The debate is over whether EVERY turbo car NEEDS a front mount to acheive decent power and the answer is no, not every car needs one. It is still possible to have a decent powered car with a TMIC.

If it was so cut and dry why would so many companies make aftermarket TMIC's if being a top mount ment it was gonna be useless anyway?

[Alex]

It's not that I can't accept what's an opposing viewpoint.

I can.

I just don't appreciate you getting all personally critical on me. It's not cool. Lets just discuss the subject matter and not my personality. OK?

If you can manage to pull up some horseshit about how TMIC's are ZOMGSOMUCHBETTER, then surely, you can pull up some real world data about how in fact, side by side, FMIC are better?

This is the thing about the internet. All you have to do is google something, read some unauthored piece of text, and all of a sudden, some personally biased shmuck's opinions are used as reference material to make your decision?

TMICs are made by aftermarket manufacturers for suckers. Its a business. They make money in the quaint assumption that people buying them are taking a legal alternative to FMIC.

Fact of the matter is that even an aftermarket TMIC is still a defect. If both concern you, forget making power. Leave it stock.

My statement is: If you get a car with a TMIC, and replace it with a FMIC, it will make more power. Period. I don't care what some 87octane using, unclefiddling, swampdonkeyraping yankie says from the states.

[B4TT]

Sell your Subaru and buy a Veyron - problem solved.

[Dylan]

Interesting discussion.

Alex - you say that anyone can have a look at peoples posts online and become an expert based on their biased post, but you are posting up the same way. I honestly can't see any posts where someone has attacked you or talked about your personality. If there are, I would be more than happy to take the appropriate action.

I am looking to put a FMIC in mine, as I have a really small and crap TMIC (early WRX size), but I have had a talk with a few people who believe that the newer STi top mounts are suitable for decent power and mods. Unfortunately my setup limits me, as the manifold is not compatible with any decent size top coolers, plus I want the flutter and noise and looks of one

Perhaps a way that we can look to see this, is look at the flow limit for a TMIC and then look at turbo's and their flow rates. Sure, TMIC gets bad heat soak if you are stopped, they have water spray to combat that and once you are moving airflow should be sufficient. I really don't believe they are for 'mugs' as you have implied though Alex. As well as this, I have talked with people who haev put a FMIC in (yourself included Alex) who don't really say that 'lag' is one of the characteristics of their cars.

[buzzda]

It's not that I can't accept what's an opposing viewpoint.

I can.

I just don't appreciate you getting all personally critical on me. It's not cool. Lets just discuss the subject matter and not my personality. OK?

If you can manage to pull up some horseshit about how TMIC's are ZOMGSOMUCHBETTER, then surely, you can pull up some real world data about how in fact, side by side, FMIC are better?

This is the thing about the internet. All you have to do is google something, read some unauthored piece of text, and all of a sudden, some personally biased shmuck's opinions are used as reference material to make your decision?

TMICs are made by aftermarket manufacturers for suckers. Its a business. They make money in the quaint assumption that people buying them are taking a legal alternative to FMIC.

Fact of the matter is that even an aftermarket TMIC is still a defect. If both concern you, forget making power. Leave it stock.

My statement is: If you get a car with a TMIC, and replace it with a FMIC, it will make more power. Period. I don't care what some 87octane using, unclefiddling, swampdonkeyraping yankie says from the states.

Sorry if I insulted you, wasn't my intention.

Like I said that article was just an example, but if you could be bothered/have time to read it they go into detail about how to improve your top-mount to make it as efficient as a front mount. I don't care where it came from, someone's obviously done it and proven it works.... maybe some people would rather go down that path than an easily spotted front mount?. As Nik said, some people don't like the look of a front mount so getting the best top mount is what they're after.

Maybe some people want to keep the stock I/C. Wouldn't it be more beneficial to let them know what the stock I/C will handle rather than just tell them that it's crap?

There's also the question of why do Subaru continue to use a top mount set-up?

As Soop pointed out, using a more efficient turbo will decrease air temp post turbo, therefore lessening the cooling load of the I/C. Some may be happy with that result, yes agreed, they could have more with a front mount but if it's not needed (car is making power they want without heatsoak issues) what's the use?

TBH when I re-build mine I more than likely will go front mount myself. But found the H/flow TMIC was sufficient for what it had.

My intentions were to have a discussion providing both pro's and con's of each, so people could make an informed decision about what's better for their needs.

[aekOne]

just to respond the example given

Maybe cause of the hundreds of write ups like this:

Front-Mount Intercooler is absolutely NOT necessary unless your rotated turbo setup requires it; - so after reading their website they say in one breath that a fmic is not neccessery, in the next breath they say a fmic DOES cool better than a tmic, and in the last breath that getting a methanol injection system, upgraded tmic and custom tune is the way to go, even though a fmic wasn't necessary in the first place. Seems a bit over the top for a daily as they put it and to me seem's like a waste of money when they've already admitted that a fmic does cool better than a factory tmic

FMICs for daily driven Subarus are a waste of money; - yeah it's a daily but i want it to go fast and be efficient. after weighing up the pros and cons it seems to me that the obvious choice is still FMIC. price isn't bad either really. Again from reading their website this is what they're saying..."fmic is a waste of money BUT an fmic will cool better vs a stand alone tmic but with the methanol system and custom tune your UPGRADED tmic will be just a shade more efficient. remember we said a fmic is a waste of money"

FMICs add turbo lag; - TBH i didn't notice 3/5 of fork all difference in lag between fmic and tmic

FMICs are not safe, the front bumper beam has to be removed or cut to install an FMIC; - no modifications where done to my front bar OR reo to install the fmic.

FMIC supports marketed by FMIC manufacturers are not a replacement for the stock bumper beam and are not safe; - see above

Large aftermarket TMIC with alcohol injection is more efficient at cooling than a largest FMIC without alcohol injection; - so the way to not waste your money is buy a methanol injection system, custom tune and an upgraded tmic? if a FMIC that's proven (see quote from the same website below) to cool better than a stand alone tmic but is a waste of money on a daily drive, how is a methanol injection system, custom tune and upgraded tmic better value for your grocery getter?

FMIC with alcohol injection is not more efficient than a TMIC with alcohol injection; - i'm not about to start running methanol

Stay with a large aftermarket Top-Mount Intercooler and a stock location turbo – other than looks and turbo setup requirements, there is no sane reason to install a Front-Mount intercooler on your car. - all this from a website that seems to exist to advocate methanol injection systems.

this is also an exact quote from the same site. no editing no tricks.

TMICs can be almost as efficient at cooling as FMICs

If a process west tmic is say $800 + upgraded y-pipe and a fmic set up is $900 surely that says to me the I should go the fmic route. Cost is the same but fmic performs better

i'm completely unbiased here as i've got 2 cars, a car with a tmic and a car with a fmic and i'm certainly no expert that's for sure (i'm a simple traveling shoe sales man by trade). i'm open to all options but it still seems to me that a fmic is going to better than a tmic.

i didn't do it because of zomoghectic on the forum or who ever did it and I don’t only base my upgrades on google searches. i spoke to a bunch of tuners, mechanics and people who have run both. the unanimous answer was fmic is better. hands down. i can walk down the road now and ask Cromer Racing, Procar, T&M, CMS or Brian Potts Racing who are all on my street and they will (and have) all told me that fmic is a more efficient system vs a top mount. using methanol might be another story but it's not something that i'm really interested in doing

I guess we can all make our own decisions about our own cars but it must be said, i'm happy with the choices i've made.

If the debate is does every car need a fmic then I guess no it doesn’t but as an UPGRADE (which the op was asking about), a fmic will improve the performance of your car. Isn’t that the point of this discussion? Sure a top mount is ok but a fmic is better right

A car turns fine without upgrading swaybars or upgrading suspension parts, a car stops without upgrading brakes, a car breathes without an exhaust or cai. BUT it can be all done better with the right mods. That’s why we do them.

The OP asked what mods can he do to improve his car. Surely the benefits of a FMIC are an improvement over stock. Is it necessary, maybe not, but is it an improvement, yes. That’s not in debate so surely thats the answer to the original question.