710 replies to this topic

[Soop]

Good post Jeff. Though, just in case. Of course environmental differences will effect how accurate that list is.

[Evil_VZ-T]

It dips to 11:1 AFR... Thats in the region of mine and i have 15psi of boost in there too!! As everyone has said, Its running way to rich for that motor, Do you blow smoke out the back when you get up at it? Ring around your local tuner's and see if anyone has had a crack at tuning the NA's Even try MRT (i know i know) As i have seen some of their ECUtek results with the 3.0RB's and they are impressive.

[JMP]

if you want the best economy, install a wideband o2 sensor and wire it to the vipec. Tune the cruise/light load sections of the map perfectly, make sure your target AFR table is right, then enable the closed loop fuel control.

The wideband closed loop fueling on the vipec uses the AFR target table for the corrections, works extremely well on my car. The acceleration enrichment also contributes to the detriment of the fuel economy if you're not light on the throttle and it's set too heavy.

Attached are two screenshots from the factory EZ30R fuel tables showing estmated AFR for subaru's load measurment. As you can see it runs around stoich at light load, and straight into the 13's with power and around 12 in the top end.

Also keep in mind that the factory ECU has more than 20 configurable corrections for knock control to stop itself grenading with the timing it runs, it will retard up to 7 degrees from the base map.

If you go for agressive timing and a lean mixture, all it will take is a bad batch of fuel to crack your ringlands as no aftermarket ECU has knock control as good as the factory ECU's which have hundreds of hours worth of tuning put into them.

I personally wouldn't run an EZ30R with AFR's in the 14's under significant load.

[Blaeven]

thanks dude...

that's what i was looking for... helps me out heaps...

i think my problem is that there doesn't seem to be much difference between quarter throttle and full throttle for anything below 4k rpm...

meaning it's constantly running rich??

oh, and i haven't noticed any smoke.. but it's a little hard for me to check...

edit:

i've also noticed the knock sensors at work when it's cold and i try to rev it past 4k (when it looks warm on the temp gauge, i've got to give it another minute before i get up it even a little bit) because it sort of pops and stutters and won't really rev much (i haven't pushed it... i'm not an idiot)

[Soop]

Look at the back bar. Exhaust tip ect ect. Maybe its worth while getting the opinion and recommendations, then take that to the original tuner. Because you've paid for a service, and as far as I've seen you haven't received that. Edit: If the knock sensor is pulling timing, its because its pinging (or faulty). Engines can ping when excessively rich.

[JMP]

wouldn't suprise me if Mark put an additional cold revlimit on the engine to protect it before its up to correct operating temp. I've got mine set to 5000rpm before 80deg coolant temp, but I usually wait until my oil is up to 80deg before putting any real stress on the engine. Have you hooked a laptop up to have a look at the map yet? Soop, he paid for two tuning sessions, where the complete map was developed from scratch... What do YOU think a complete aftermarket ECU tune should cost from scratch, and how long should it take? Keep in mind there's no "base map" to start from. I know I've spent about 2 months perfecting mine on the street after the initial tune, getting the maps perfect takes a LOT of time. Getting all the corrections perfect, accel enrichment, closed loop parameters, knock control, etc etc etc. I know my old Autronic map from a very well renound Subaru tuner down south was a complete bag of crap, evident once I got access to it (that tuner locked their maps to "protect" their tunes). That was a $1000+ tune from a workshop that had tuned a lot of similar setups in the past.

[Soop]

I realise that. But that is seriously rich mate. I mean, really rich. I just would have thought the tuner would have wanted something a little more refined prior to letting the car be taken.

[JMP]

so it's confirmed to be running in the 11's? I didn't think Blaeven had a wideband in it yet? Also regarding the "knock", if you hit a soft revlimit while it's cold the engine noise generated can look like knock. That's another reason why it takes a fair amount of work to setup the knock table properly. Lots of datalogging to be done, and as you know Mark did not want to push the limits of knock on your engine with cast pistons. They're a lot easier to break when finding the limits than with a set of forgies.

[Soop]

Well that's what Tristan quoted as being on the dyno when he stood there and watched it. If thats correct, I stand by my previous statements.

[Blaeven]

so it's confirmed to be running in the 11's? I didn't think Blaeven had a wideband in it yet?

Also regarding the "knock", if you hit a soft revlimit while it's cold the engine noise generated can look like knock. That's another reason why it takes a fair amount of work to setup the knock table properly. Lots of datalogging to be done, and as you know Mark did not want to push the limits of knock on your engine with cast pistons. They're a lot easier to break when finding the limits than with a set of forgies.

it only drops to 11 (i think it goes that low) at WOT at about 3800 (before the cutover to AVLS)

i don't know what the AFR's are for the rest of the tune...

i'll plug a laptop into it soon... i'm assuming i'll need some sort of Vi-PEC software first??

and i don't think it has a lower rev limit in place as it will still rev if i push it (i think...) i just don't want to because it doesn't seem to like it...

[Soop]

Sounds like its just getting waaaaiiiiii to much fuel.

[JMP]

http://www.vi-pec.com

Software is there

[jzk25]

Soop, why do you keep rambling on about shit you don't know anything about? You have absolutely no data to base your uneducated opinion on. JMP has posted the afr targets for the factory tune and I doubt there is much difference between that and Marks tune. There is a big difference between doing a generic reflash that has been about to 11ty billion LS engines and tuning a full aftermarket ecu from scratch on an engine that is totally unknown in the aftermarket. The reason for the dip in AFR's at ~4k rpm is because the variable lift changeover point is quite aggressive. The extra fuel is there to ensure there is no lean spot or pinging on the changeover. Frank - If a factory ecu could be used on this engine I would have used it. There are many problems related to using a factory ecu on a Gen 4 engine relating to the CAN communication system between modules. These problems could well be overcome with research but the only immediate solution is aftermarket ecu's and the Vipec is the only one that will run the engine properly in Australia.

[fatcat67]

Frank - If a factory ecu could be used on this engine I would have used it. There are many problems related to using a factory ecu on a Gen 4 engine relating to the CAN communication system between modules. These problems could well be overcome with research but the only immediate solution is aftermarket ecu's and the Vipec is the only one that will run the engine properly in Australia.

It appears my understanding of the whole conversion proces may be a tad simplistic and I most certainly don't know a lot about this stuff, but this is what I understood for example:
Ver8 STI into a Gen2, use Ver8 ECU and loom with Al weaving his magic.
Ver4 STI into a Gen1, use Ver4 ECU and loom with Al weaving his magic.
EZ30 into a Gen2, use EZ30 ECU and loom and Al weaving his magic.
Aren't all the sensors/modules the same as the stock ECU would be utilizing?
If this isn't quite the case then this is the kind of stuff that we'd love to understand and learn about.

[B4TT]

One Quick question Al in regards to the Vipec being the only ECU able to run the EZ30R.... Why can a Motec M800 or something like that not do this? is it just because the Motec is too expensive and not a viable option or is there something the Vipec has that the Motec Doesn't? I have always thought the Motecs were a pretty good ecu able to handle anything and was suprised to read you say the Vipec was the only one able to do it? (this is not critisism I promise.. just really curious to learn )

[Richo]

One Quick question Al in regards to the Vipec being the only ECU able to run the EZ30R....
Why can a Motec M800 or something like that not do this? is it just because the Motec is too expensive and not a viable option or is there something the Vipec has that the Motec Doesn't? I have always thought the Motecs were a pretty good ecu able to handle anything and was suprised to read you say the Vipec was the only one able to do it?
(this is not critisism I promise.. just really curious to learn )

IIRC from reading many of Az's EZ30+T build threads on RSLC they/he/it ran into issues with the amount of inputs.. or was that a different ECU...










/Waits for Al to slap me around a bit and call me a retard

[jzk25]

The Gen 4 cars use Can Bus communication between modules which causes problems when you take the ECU out of that vehicle and wire it into an older vehicle. The problem being that the electronic throttle does not operate because of lack of communication with the stability control/abs control unit. Then there is the body control/security module to deal with. This is a multi unit now instead of immobiliser specific and is also on the communication bus. EZ30D is not problem, WRX/XT up to 06 is also no problem(have done all these successfully including DBW conversions. Gen 4 Lib and post 06 everything is a problem at this stage. There is a possibility that these problems could be overcome with the appropriate software to remove them from the ECU's requirements but I do not have this technology available to me so went with the option that I knew would work. I am not in the habit of experimenting on customers cars at there expense. All the better ECU *could* run an EZ30R but the ViPec/Link *has* already and has drop boxes with EZ30R as a trigger option. The price is also very good. Before attempting a conversion like this for a customer I need a certain level of surety in regards to how successful it is going to be within a reasonably small timeframe. The ViPec ticks the boxes for value for money and surety. The triggering is unique on the EZ30R and it has to be decoded before the ecu will run the engine. This can be extremely time consuming and expensive. Aarons Motec does run his EZ but not properly at this stage(AVCS doesn't work) which is a bit disappointing and probably the fault of the installer/tuner more than the ecu. It's freaking expensive though. It has also run out of in's and out's leaving a few important things wanting. Not cool for an ecu of this cost. I have heard rumours about Autronics being *planned* to be used in the states but no actual results. The V88 aint no microtech, it is up there with M800 for features and capabilities.

[B4TT]

Cool Cool, Thanks for that info

[fatcat67]

Thanks Al. So it looks like the newer Subaru's are going the way of the newer German cars with the CAN Bus system. This is something I didn't know Subaru had switched to in their newer models. Is it a separate module in behind the cluster like the BMW's? I've heard that the CAN system makes fault diagnosis even harder that previously because of the way the system isolates faults in "module areas", instead of being more direct with a fault code. Now I'm starting to understand the EZ30R.

[Xon]

Surely if you had your hands on a complete halfcut you could just move everything CAN related across without too many dramas?