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Gen3 outback - TT conversion

gen3 outback twin turbo swap sleeper

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#1 duncanm

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 09:50 PM

Current state:
- Rev A-C outback, dual range 5MT
- EJ208 transplant. 
- MRT stainless 3" turbo back w/ divorced wastegate dumps.
- RSK 20mm front, whiteline 20mm rear swaybar
- RSK/GT-B leather/cloth front seats
- VDO boost gauge (vent install)
- alloy front LCA's

---
Here's how it started:

 
I have a manual Gen3 OB with a very sick 2.5.  Its burning oil on #1 cyl and has been doing so for quite some time... getting worse and worse and I finally need to do something about it before I get defected or forget to top off the oil and self-destruct it. The cars done ~250k.
 
It hasn't been diagnosed, but I'm thinking its dropped a valve guide or maybe an oil ring or land has gone.  I even replaced the valve stem seals some time back in a vain hope that was the problem - nope.
 
So its time for a fix and I figure why not make it a car I want to drive that's also practical.  Sure, its a moderate sized, lifted wagon, but it still handles pretty well and is a blast to drive on dirt, even with a bootfull of camping gear and three kids in the back. 
 
I've got my eyes on doing a turbo swap. I've been trolling through the build threads here - very enlightening and educational (I just got a good laugh out of Josh's swap http://www.subyclub....oshs-whitekong/. inspirational!)
 
 
What I'd like:
 
 - keep the dual-range box. Its good for getting up our steep driveway with a cold engine and we do a bit of dirt with the kids some times (camping etc). Its remarkably handy.
 
  - most of the swap myself.  The car is not primary transport, so I can spend some time on it. I'll have to source an engine hoist (hire, or buy/sell). I've done clutches, CV's, gearbox swaps (FWD) and pulled a (mini) engine before, so I figure the mechanical side isn't out of reach; its the next step up in my mechanical education :)
 
  - do a full service on the donor (timing belt, water pump, idler etc ) before it goes in. This goes without saying.
 
  - Wiring.. this sounds like either an epic shitfight, or a $1000 job for someone who knows what they're doing (AMAuto). This is pushing me towards a B4 TT to minimise the wiring changeover. Front cuts for the TT also seem to be a bit cheaper, presumably because of their bad rep.
 
  - I'm not after monster power. I want a reliable driver with a bit of poke.
 
  - I figure a budget of $5k should easily do it. $2.5k for a cut, and a couple more for bits and bobs, clutch, exhaust, fuel pump, rego, tune etc.
 
Questions for the learned folk here:
 
  - will a B4 TT (Gen3) of the right vintage just drop in with donor front loom(s?)+dash+ECU without having to splice wiring?  A couple of threads here suggest it will.  Wiring doesn't faze me (I'm an elec engineer), but I'd rather not fight that 20ft octopus with the corresponding chance for mistakes that take forever to track down, the alternative $1k eats into the budget.
 
  - NSW rego?  What's going on here, the rules seem to have changed recently. It used to be purely capacity, so a 2.0+T (multiplier was about 1.3, if I recall) was no issue. Now there's rules about 20% power increase and other guff (see the NSW interpretations here: http://www.rms.nsw.g...ds/vsi/vsi6.pdf - somewhat inconsistent) , which will be violated with anything over ~155kW. Will it just go through with an 'engine swap' form because the  AUDM B4 is the same 'model', or will I have to get it certified and worry about the 'brake and suspension upgrades' matching?  I plan on upgrading brakes from the donor cut anyway, but have no plans on suspension or anything other than replacing/upgrading bushes and such.  I guess what I want to know here any recent (< 1year) NSW swap experience with the RTA/RMS.
 
 - stock box means 1/ soft launches (no probs, I'm past my worst hooning days with three kids), and 2/ keeping the 4.44 diff ratio. I don't do a lot of country driving, so the 3000rpm cruising doesn't worry me (and anyway, I'll have another 1500rpm at the top end to play with!). I guess another option may be 4.11 plus dual range with a hybrid 'box - can that be done? (rear diff change to match, of course)
 
 - fuel pump -- I guess a larger capacity is required, there's also mention of new controllers - what's this about?
 
 
 - And finally - it seems every man and his dog has his opinion about the TT.  I'm not phased about the complexity - I plan to replace all the vac lines,  hoses etc on the donor, and will also go through the servos etc to make sure it at least functions as stock.  The dreaded VOD doesn't worry me -- like I said, I'm not going to thrash it, most driving around town stays under 3000 anyway, and the budget will include a safe tune which hopefully will also minimise it.
 
 - Can a high comp (9.0?) JDM TT be reliably tuned for our 98RON pump fuel, or am I going to be battling with the bloody thing trying to ping itself to an early grave?
 
 - is my budget realistic?
 
----
 
For those interested - here's a breakdown of the final costs - ended up coming in well under budget.
 
Attached File  SubaruEngineSwap - Budget.pdf   35.32KB   52 downloads

#2 Morgan

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 10:30 PM

Wow!

 

Hi and welcome.

 

I like where you're going with this!

 

TT will you give you more headaches than you need. It's worth the $1k for the wiring splice and single turbo. People who own them have a love/hate relationship - even Josh with his KONGbeast ;)

 

Have a squiz through Joels thread. He's recently completed a WRX engine swap into his Outback.

 

http://www.subyclub....1-my02-outback/

 

 

Some more food for thought - Josh (a different one!) has put a JDM GTB TT motor in his Outback .

 

http://www.subyclub....an-outback-gtb/


IM47Gcv.jpg


#3 Beckers

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Posted 21 May 2014 - 11:09 PM

If you want to tune it, go for a rev d or e halfcut,

otherwise you need a different ecu or have it modded by ESL or Ecu Labs etc.

 

What rev is your car ??

 

Yes your budget is ok. if you do the work yourself.

 

Where are you from ???



#4 Cam.

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 12:03 AM

Read Joel's thread and go that route.

Trust me.

or you could be different and throw a EZ30 in it :)


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#5 allpaw4

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 12:05 AM

Welcome! Good to see you're starting to ask the right questions AFTER having a look through the forums, and it sounds like you have your head screwed on as well, not just another 'I want to bolt a turbo onto my car' crap thread. I like it.

 

Keeping the dual range box sounds like a great idea from what you have explained - although, be warned, they are weaker than the normal turbo single range boxes. You have it right, dont be tempted to launch it, or do hard/fast gearchanges. The added torque from the turbos will tear it to bits, especially as it's getting old.

 

Doing the work yourself is a great idea, and being its not a daily, is even doable. You can do a change like this in a week (some guys here have done the mechanical changeover in a weekend), but only with everything prepped and spares at the ready. Expect a month or so for sourcing those hard to get at bits etc.

 

Full service is a good idea, although the quad cam engines timing belts can be an absolute prick to get perfect. Get an engine stand for it though, as doing it in the car is painful and will result in much swearing (you'll be doing this anyways, but in the car will just result in more lol)

 

Wiring - theres a reason Al charges about a grand... its a prick of a job, fiddly and you need the diagrams etc to do it right. Better to pay the man and not have to worry - what takes him a day or two will take you 2 weeks, and result in a butchered mess. Al does it day in day out, and its worth every cent to get it done professionally. Wiring issues are a pain to fault find, and issues can result in your car going up in flames. Do it once, do it right.

Gen 3 TT motor will be the simplest for this, but if you are changing the loom, its not that much more money to convert to something else - at the end of the day, Al and Miles can do a lot. I have a ver.8 STi single in my gen 3 B4 now courtesy of AM Auto - no qualms with their work or workmanship.

 

My gut is saying go straight to a single turbo, but I have had a bit of a bad experience with the TT motors. If you are willing to do the maintenance and keep the TT system functional, go for it. If you like just taking it for a drive, get a single turbo cut. In this respect - you want drivability, go WRX, you want power, go STi.

 

$5k is plenty if you're doing the work yourself. Maybe a bit more if you're farming the electrical out to AM Auto. But it should be ample.

 

As far as Rego issues go, a TT cut will be VASTLY easier. I would say that state laws are based around the federal standards, so in theory the nuts and bolts side should all be the same. Basically, in SA, it works like this:

Convert to TT means all major components need to come across with it -

Suspension - generally sway bars and struts/springs is all that it required

Exhaust - you'll need to change most of this over anyways, but as a minimum, you will need the dumps and cats. I have no idea about lengths of them sedan/wagon, but if you get a GTB cut, it should all bolt straight up

Brakes - they want calipers and rotors as a minimum, but if the proportioning valve and master cylinder are different, they will need to be changed also. I'm pretty sure they are the same though.

If you change all those items over, re-doing the rego to suit will be a case of pay the money, get it inspected and mod-plated, and job done. Single turbo conversion is a lot more headaches on this side of the fence.

Don't forget to get the tuning done after you get it inspected. One of the requirements on conversions is the need for a stock ECU program.

 

Keeping the 4.44 gearset is ok, and if you're cruising at 3000rpm, the gearset must already incorporate a drop in top gear to allow for the higher ratio - I have 4.11, and I'm doing 3k at cruising speed as well.

Changing to 4.11 is doable, but honestly not worth the effort if you're not doing lots of country driving. As mentioned before though - be gentle on the old box!

 

The B4's run a pump controller separate to the ECU - its a variable speed pump. You will need this in addition to the ECU, but I dont know where it is - have a chat to Al or Miles, or there should be people on here that should be able to guide you correctly.

 

If you want to deal with the TT system - kudos. Have a read through the vast amount of info in the TT part of the forums. Its complex, but once you have the idea behind how it works, it's not that bad.

 

All the turbo motors vary between 8:1 and 9:1 compression, depending on what model and year it was from. As long as you get the ECU with the motor, you'll be fine short term. The tunes are written for the compression ratio. The JDM ECUs are quite good at detecting and correcting for knock, its the factory ADM tunes that were comparatively bad.


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MY97 Silver RX, aka 'The Track Toy' - All good bits from B4 will find their way into this...
MY03 Holden Commodore - Daily. Because good on fuel.


#6 KONG

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 01:55 PM

Seems like someone has done some research and is asking all the right questions....

 

Which ever way you go, take heaps of pics and share them here.



#7 cameron

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 02:01 PM

http://www.subyclub....-17#entry465703

read this 1000times. then copy it. obviously only difference will be whichever intercooler setup you choose to run

Have you put any more thought into squeezing some more power out of the engine. Like strapping on one of those intake fans


#8 JDWhiteWRX

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 06:03 PM

My swap went very smooth I think and it did not cost all that much either, there is a cost breakdown toward the end of my build thread if you are interested. The 2.0L jap spec motors with AVCS are a very nice trouble free motor and I jumped at the chance to get one in my Outback when I saw the half cut for sale. Its basically the same motor as in my MY05 Aussie delivered wrx and I have given that car a pretty hard life compared to your average daily driven wrx and it has been faultless.

 

You would be crazy not to get AM Auto to the the loom, I love a good DIY and I considered doing it myself but it is a huge job and you will be busy enough swapping everything else over anyway. When I got mine back it was all very neat, nothing was missing and every single thing worked.

 

The dual range box is fine to use, I kept it in my car which meant not having to swap diffs or remove the gearbox. No issues yet and I don't expect any.

 

I don't know too much about the rego, I haven't even bothered to get a blue slip for mine yet but that's probably all I will do. I do know that you can not put an old motor in, it must be from the same year as your car or newer.

 

cheers

 

Joel.



#9 duncanm

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 09:33 AM

Thanks guys for the quick feedback and warm welcome.

 

I'm in Sydney (Hornsby area).

 

Just checked the VIN and engine

 

JF2BH9KJBXG00xxxx
 
If my google-fu is good, I interpret this as
 
JF2 - Japan, Fuji manufacturing division #2
BH - Legacy 3rd Gen Wagon (2000-2003)
 
Somewhat surprised at the 2000-2003, as the build date is 03/99
 
Not surprising, the trans is a TY754XKAAA - 5MT dual range
 
I've had a good read through the threads pointed to here, multiple times. Have also been poking around trying to find more info on the blue slip situation - still a bit confused on that.
 
If I were to go JDM TT (I noticed Ichiban have a BE5 halfcut in stock), can anyone shed more light on the wiring loom? - would it be a simpler "front-half front the cut, back half from the outback" type situation?  I've downloaded a couple of FSM's and will see if I can suss out how tricky it'll be.  I've came across a couple of threads which outline the general idea (eg: http://www.rs25.com/...ge-harness.html, and I came across one from Al/AM I think, which I can't find ATM) sounds like its a lengthy process, but not rocket surgery as long as you are diligent about matching signals and have the correct wiring diagrams.
 
 
Next step is negotiations with the financial controller and then I'll ring around a few front-cut suppliers. I see there's a couple well recommended here, so I'll start there.
 
 


#10 cameron

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 09:58 AM

TT is aids you would have seen that in your research and i garantee you will be pulling it out again at some point to go single turbo. do it once do it right with a wrx/sti/forester front cut from 2002-2007 with avcs, tuneable ecu etc


Have you put any more thought into squeezing some more power out of the engine. Like strapping on one of those intake fans


#11 hoff

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 10:06 AM

Just talk to Ben at ichiban. He will have all the answers for you. They just got some new half cuts in as well.

#12 Morgan

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 11:03 AM

It would be a 99 built, MY00


IM47Gcv.jpg


#13 JDWhiteWRX

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 11:13 AM

One phone call to Al or Miles at AM Auto and they will tell you everything you need to know about the wiring and which front cut will work best, do this before you do anything else, they were very helpful when I phoned them.



#14 sbv

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 01:34 PM

My loom from the front cut went straight in - only extra thing I had to wire in was the sunroof.

 

Up to you what cut you want to get, but my experience so far with the TT has been pretty painless and a lot of fun. I'd recommend taking one for a drive if possible before you decide. The only gear I ever see VOD is first, and first is pretty short, so its come and gone before you know it.

 

I find a stock TT to have a lot more 'fun' factor than a stock single turbo, as you get good top and bottom end performance and you can drive around the VOD. That said, a modified single can be a lot of fun if thats where you want to go. Modified TT - well, I'll tell you in a week...



#15 sbv

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 01:44 PM

Also, double check your final drive ratio - I'm pretty confident your TY754XKAAA is 4.11, not 4.44.



#16 duncanm

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 08:04 PM

err... yeh.  4.11 now, FC likely to be 4.44. But I won't be changing g/box or diff.



#17 duncanm

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 10:27 PM

Score

 

collapsible engine hoist: $75

 

DSC_0417.jpg



#18 Robert

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 10:30 PM

Scores.

Will that fit In between your wheels? Looks mighty wide

#19 duncanm

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 10:48 PM

Yeh it'll fit - about 1.5m. Phone camera is misleading. I think I pulled a mini engine with the same model from Kennards many moons ago

#20 duncanm

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Posted 04 June 2014 - 03:57 PM

My garage has aidz

 

news at 11







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